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  • Thoughts about the site

    I can't figure out why the traffic to this site is so low. Is it the site's design? Is it a lack of advertisement? Are the stories uncomfortable to read? Or are people simply uninterested in writing, least of all CYOA?

    I suppose there are numerous reasons why it could happen. I'm not sure which holds the most blame. While I could easily say people aren't quite as interested in writing, I don't believe it's true. I do believe there are loads of people into writing--so what's that leave? Now we must pinpoint among those writers which are interested in CYOA. I've not heard any news of any developments in any popular CYOA stories. Much of what's popular nowadays are novels, plain front-to-back novels. I frequent my school's library often, and never recall seeing any form of CYOA novel anywhere. They're almost like novelties.

    Naturally, a website geared toward CYOA will provide a much more enjoyable experience than having to thumb through pages to figure out what choice you made, as you spend less time doing that and more time reading. So where's the crowd for it? I'm not sure. Maybe it's harder for people to take a CYOA story seriously; movies generally play from front to back, though a CYOA movie wouldn't be impossible, either. It just might not be preferable; the first CYOA movie would probably be great for the novelty, but after that, the novelty dies. Depending on how many choices you're allowed to make, you might not be in for more than a half hour's worth of movie--but you can always start over and figure it out another way. I see it working out great for murder-mysteries, where you have to watch it every which way to figure it out. So does this also apply to CYOA? Can a CYOA story not be taken seriously? I don't believe this is true, a CYOA story can be damn well interesting, and very thought-intensive; a writer has to think in a linear format, and that can be hard enough, but a CYOA writer has to think in a third dimension, in which stories do not only move forward, but in many different directions. Perhaps here lies the reason why CYOA stories must be kept simple, as to avoid the problem of rooms without end, and stories which are never resolved. Perhaps there will someday be a mastermind who develops the ultimate CYOA novel, complex and completely trump all other stories, in either format.

    But though it will be a technical achievement, we're still left with the crowd, and taking a quick glance at the top novels of today, we can see the crowd has little interest in anything thought-provoking at all. The crowd wants their fancies tickled and the easiest ways possible. There appears to be no demand for CYOA in this genre, though I see no reason why it wouldn't improve such experiences. Are people simply more interested in a line of story, as stories have been for as long as we've been telling them? Is CYOA akin to present tense? Where if you're not used to it, it's harder to become involved in the story. After all, a story is still being told, but it's brought in a different way than what we're used to; if your grandpappy wants to tell you a story about his youth, he's not likely to ask you what happened.

    At the same time, there is one prevalent medium which employs the CYOA style of storytelling: the video game. Many video games offer several ways to change their stories--some revolve around making decisions all together, or at least different endings--which isn't surprising, as CYOA is a step between writing and programming. This isn't regarded as strange in the least; in fact, it's often very engaging, for the gamer has much more involvement in what happens to the guy or gal he's stuck with following for the entire ride. For bigger games with huge stories, you won't see such an increased effect, as the choices you make along the way often change little what happens in the end; you're still on a monorail. But there is one game which comes to mind that removes the rail entirely by offering no immediate story elements whatsoever: you can find it here. In Yume Nikki, you're set off in a room, where you dream and explore your dreams. There's very little story and the only goal is to explore and find certain effects which beget more effects. However, Yume Nikki in the CYOA writing form would be almost the exact same process; you give a room (a certain scene in Yume Nikki) and then allow the reader to choose which way he would like to go. Some rooms would loop back to where you were before, and the only thing missing would be the ability to pick up the effects. It is completely, 100% open ended, and its entire merit comes from just how unusual it is.

    We can find such examples in most popular games today, especially in RPGs. If such brands of stories appeal to gamers, would they not also be interested in pure CYOA stories? It seems the literary crowd only picks up CYOA out of luck and curiosity; plus, it appears the most popular of these books are entirely geared toward children. Though there are plenty of examples of adult CYOA stories, the format is treated gimmicky, and something children would rather want to read, as their perceived attention spans are shorter, so the game helps them stay interested. I can only wonder, then, if one writer has the ability to release a CYOA story so impressively done, it will spur an avalanche of more, thereby increasing interest of the genre and thus, interest in this website. But there seems to be nothing new in the genre that will overtake the top novels of today, and we're back at square one.

    So, to present the question of before, why is this site so lonely out there in a world where literature isn't dying out? I believe it's due to appealing to a niche crowd; there are lots of readers out there, but I'd wager most anyone who reads CYOA will read many more regular novels. Likewise, a writer who enjoys CYOA will likely partake in a lot more normal writing as well. Back when this site was still black and white and named appropriately, I was fascinated by the idea of CYOA (I loved the odd stories on Addventure, which, upon googling, led me to this very site) I was just a kid back then, so all my writing was awful (as you can see my contribution as Mechaman here.) Likewise, I was always big on video games and RPGs, so the demographic fits. At the same time, most of my writing back then was in the form of roleplaying (specifically, I started off at Neopets, and then moved onto just finding people to write with as I got older.) For anyone who doesn't know, roleplaying is where one person writes out a block of text (typically one paragraph or more), and then another person accompanies that block of text with another block of text, switching back and forth to move the story along. So in other words, it's like co-op writing, which can be a little bit like CYOA but where both parties are writers and probably don't intend for any other readers to see their work. As of today, I managed to write out a novel and I'm working on my second, so I have to say, this site's what got me into story telling. I remember dreaming about how I could make a story on here work and how many options I had available at my disposal and how the sky was the limit and all of that. I never did manage to complete anything, but at least it got me started, and around people who were actually good at writing. Problem is, someone somewhere had the displeasure of reading what I put out, and I feel that detracted from the site's overall experience.

  • #2
    Continued

    So, back on subject. I believe the best way for this site to grow is to begin by adopting more types of writers, and keeping those writers by providing an improved method of delivering stories. What floats to mind specifically is the lack of auto-indention, and a lack of serif font. Serif is much more book-like and, supposedly, is easier on the eyes when you're doing a lot of reading. Auto-indention would be nifty, as well, since it's easier to see where paragraphs start; writers have no reason not to, so I feel it's strange for them to intentionally include the indents. Further, if the editor allowed for ctrl+i to change text to italic (and then showed that the text was italic within the editor), it would ease the writer into writing, as opposed to worrying about code to make the text look pretty. But aside from that, what's important is also the reader, and the auto-indent and serif font would do wonders for them. Further, locking the width of the rooms to approx. 15 words per line would improve the reading experience, and perhaps changing the background to a tone of sepia, or providing a way to hide the options at the left and top of the writing, would improve the reading experience, as it keeps the reader focused on the words and their choices to advance the story.

    As for adopting more writers, the site should open its doors to the more popular type of writer, who writes only in two dimensions, as opposed to the three found here. Having chapter stories and CYOA stories side-by-side should drastically improve the traffic here. The story creation and management method is already in place, so perhaps there could be an option when creating a story to separate the CYOA version of room creation to the straight-line novel version of chapter creation. Then, you could have poetry types and short story types, one-room stories without choices. In other words, opening the doors to all writers. I feel, once these are in place, the site should see an influx of new members eager to display their writing and, at the same time, they'll be more exposed to the CYOA story telling that this site is known for.

    Once those are met, the site could go for a little bit of a make-over. I believe the logo used now has been there for quite some time, and I never was able to figure out exactly what it was; looks like a glacier, except the water is above, and the sky is below. It's kinda neat, but I'm not sure if it really says "story telling"--looks more like sci-fi, if anything, but that's all I really can make of it. A title resembling the kind you'd find on the cover of a book would be more appropriate. I'm a graphic designer myself, so if you need any help, I'd be glad to pitch in with another logo. Also, I don't like the yellow buttons; they clash hard with the blue. If anything, they should probably be white. I personally prefer reading and writing on dark backgrounds; the white makes it feel like I'm constantly in a lighted room--not sure why, but it makes it hard to focus. But that's just me. Maybe different site styles would help? One that's dark, one that's light.

    Also, a method of separating the average stories with the "omg pee-my-pants must read" stories would be great. Hate to copy newgrounds, but, they have a process where most content goes through a judgment phase before it's allowed onto the public eye. This could improve the quality of stories typically found on here, where stories that are viewed as good are sent through to the front page and/or the browse stories section, and stories that don't make the cut are still available but limited to a person's profile, and nowhere else. This would cut the half-assery and "I'm just messing around" stories out (you know the ones with poor formatting, Engrish, and chatspeak in the title) and leave only quality content, thus improving the overall quality of the site. Though I'm all for everyone joining in and contributing, there should be a community-run method of ensuring the site keeps a standard on what gets the limelight and what doesn't. The rating system is currently in place; perhaps it can be adapted? On the other hand, such a system only works if you're getting a good amount of visitors.

    Another nitpick; the front page would do better to replace "Newest Stories" with the "Recently Active" tab, and of course, the "Newest Stories" could be split into "Under Judgment" and "Newest Stories". There also seems to be no obvious way to search for stories by name; a search function would do wonders for people who are seeking a specific kind of story (say, I wanted to read an Urban story with a Fantasy twist; stories with these tags would show up, with the highest rated appearing first. Or, for example, someone wanted to find a Naruto fanfic, or a Harry Potter fanfic.) And another thing about highest rating; it seems to list anything with 1 5-star rating. I think this should be balanced out by how many 5-star ratings the story received appearing first.

    I do believe this site has potential to overtake the web as the #1 corner for writers seeking improvement, and readers seeking ready-made high-quality literature. Currently, there's no real site that offers such a thing; those which do aren't free, and those which are free are a pain to use just aren't fun to read stories on. I actually attempted to use deviantART to post little segments I wrote, but they don't streamline the experience; the only good thing about them is the auto-indent. Every site so far offers one great feature, and completely neglects the rest. So why not collect all those features and lock them into one website?

    Comment


    • #3
      I appreciate your interest in improving the site. A few things you mentioned are actually available on the site. For instance you can use any BBCode in your stories.

      Indent: https://www.phpbb.com/community/view...?f=46&t=771105

      Font: http://learn-bbcode.blogspot.com/200...st-bbcode.html

      For more information: http://c-command.com/forums/misc.php?do=bbcode

      As for the chapter story versus cyoa; there is nothing stopping anyone from making a chapter story; just type it in and have only one choice at the end of the room.. that choice being "next page" or "chapter 5" or something similar. This is something I've championed in the past, but when put to a vote it was overwhelmingly shot down. So... Maybe we'll put it to a vote again or something.

      I think the search option is a great idea. Our bossman, severenz, does all the coding. We can certainly run it past him and check the plausibility of this suggestion. Tags could be hip too.
      Last edited by donteatpoop; 04-01-2013, 12:38 PM.
      The organ is grinding but the monkey won't dance.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by donteatpoop View Post
        I appreciate your interest in improving the site. A few things you mentioned are actually available on the site. For instance you can use any BBCode in your stories.

        Indent: https://www.phpbb.com/community/view...?f=46&t=771105

        Font: http://learn-bbcode.blogspot.com/200...st-bbcode.html

        For more information: http://c-command.com/forums/misc.php?do=bbcode

        As for the chapter story versus cyoa; there is nothing stopping anyone from making a chapter story; just type it in and have only one choice at the end of the room.. that choice being "next page" or "chapter 5" or something similar. This is something I've championed in the past, but when put to a vote it was overwhelmingly shot down. So... Maybe we'll put it to a vote again or something.

        I think the search option is a great idea. Our bossman, severenz, does all the coding. We can certainly run it past him and check the plausibility of this suggestion. Tags could be hip too.
        Though you are correct, those are possible, it's inconvenient. Writers =/= coders; some of us are good at it, or don't mind it to the extent of using it for BBC, but I believe it can be made much easier by providing a graphical interface. Lets say you wanted to copy-paste from Word (or wherever you're writing from,) it would be much simpler if the text copied over retained the source formatting. Instead, you would need to go back and forth finding where your italics and such are (and I haven't tried it personally, but however you'd represent a long-dash as well, unless that copies faithfully already.) Writers don't need too many fancy effects, and they're often the same effects, which is why I propose these specific effects be included without taking the extra step. The font should default to a serif is the point I'm striving at; it should be an automatic thing, know what I mean?

        And though it is possible to make one-choice rooms to move along a linear story, the site does not encourage it; it would be like hitting a nail with a shovel. It might work, but it's not what you use it for. CYOA rooms tend to be smaller, which is fine for this site, but for chapter stories, the wall of text becomes evident; readers love pages because they're easy to keep track of. A long chapter would appear incredibly daunting, forcing the writer to make every room only a few paragraphs long before the reader must hit another link to hit the next room. It doesn't make for an all-together comfortable reading experience, which I believe drives away any serious readers. As it stands, it feels more like a toy, that you play with for fun, but that's where it stops. Making a clear distinction between CYOA and chapter books through two separate 'room' formats would encourage writers unfamiliar with the CYOA format to write on the site.

        OTOH, when you mention the community, they're going to be predisposed to voting against changing anything drastic. Anyone who has been here for some time is probably used to the way things are, and there's nothing wrong with that, but taking a look around, I see it's becoming less and less lively. It may not have ever been overly popular, but now it's dwindling; or maybe it's just the forums which are becoming a ghost town, but the forum is usually a good indicator of how bustling a community is. Taking the site in another direction seems to be the only way anymore to get the word out on it, since it's been around before I even hit puberty :P

        Comment


        • #5
          The forums really have always been a ghost town though and I don't think they've ever been a good indicator of how popular the site is. Like I said even when they were at their craziest, we only had like a maximum of 10 people doing a majority of the posting and half of the time it wasn't even writing related. And some of those people that posted a lot weren't even active writers.

          I don't remember ever having a vote on the story/chapter stuff, but I can't imagine I was ever against it since it's just a simple matter of making a "one choice" story and doesn't require any drastic changes. (I think DEP has a pure story on here somewhere)

          It might've been more of a case where it was suggested and it was met with a resounding "Meh, whatever." type response from the chorus and then nothing got changed. And that's usually been the response to most change rather than a lot of hostile negativity.

          The only thing I've really ever been argumentative about has been overhauling the ratings system and we've had a lot of debates about that in the past, though someone actually came up with something that sounded halfway reasonable (to me) within the "Top Writers Section" thread (And the rating algorithim thread addressed some other points of the conversation). Unfortunately some words got misinterpreted, it turned into an argument and then the subject was dropped.

          http://forums.infinite-story.com/showthread.php?t=2797

          http://forums.infinite-story.com/showthread.php?t=2802

          I'm still inclined to believe that its been the technical glitches that pop up from time to time that can make the main writing site inaccessible for weeks or even a month that has driven away the casual lurker/reader.

          I imagine more aggressive advertising would help, but again, I'm not the person for that.

          If this site did ever make the change to outwardly accept linear traditional stories it wouldn't really bother me as long as it kept the CYOA stuff obviously. This would be going the "writer/reader" way.

          The other way would be the "game/player" way. This is something that I believe would get more resistance from those few vets here that are still around here. Basically this site would have to be overhauled so it included coding, stats, and all those other things that sites like CYS or CoG have. This would basically keep CYOAs, but it wouldn't be pure writing anymore.

          Personally I could probably get used to it if a change like that occurred however I'm more on the side of something Drag has said in the past which was "There are already other sites that cater to the game side of CYOAs and this is a site that doesn't need to be one of them."
          Last edited by End Master; 04-02-2013, 04:40 PM.
          Writing: It's more fun than a barrel of Ebola ridden monkeys!

          Comment


          • #6
            I once made mention (back when I was a child) that it could be very interesting to include basic game elements to improve the interactivity of the stories, further blurring the lines between pure fiction and gaming. Nobody thought it was a good idea and it never happened :P I'm all up for, however. If different story types are implemented, that could be another one of them, totaling to 3 major ones--being, CYOA, Linear, and Game. However, would it attract another crowd? I don't agree that a site should do one thing specifically, only, ever. Because those "games" would still be heavily centered around the main point of this site--that is, telling stories, and enjoying stories--it's perfectly acceptable, so long as it does not interfere with any other feature of the site. So long as CYOA sticks as a focal point, there can be a number of changes beneath it which won't hinder the experience.

            It's very unusual that the forums are this empty; normally, even if the forums are quite empty, the site shows an equal amount of emptiness. People are social beings--but then again, writers tend to isolate. Taking a quick look at the newest created stories, I don't believe we're that far off; the last created story was in Feb. There's been several new members, but I wonder how many are sticking around after they create an account. So who knows.

            Now lets assume that nothing changes and the only issues is marketing. It's entirely possible. Advertisements seem to be a sink, so says over 10mil users of AdBlock on Chrome. What would have to happen is circulating the site through social networks. Hear-say is the most powerful tool any marketer could use; I'm not marketer myself, so don't take my word on that. But there seems to be an avalanche effect; when one person just has to tell someone else about this amazing new thing they found, it passes along, and, as they say, goes viral. This "wow" factor, I believe, can be achieved by first making those flashy, state-of-the-art changes I mentioned in the OP. There are plenty of young writers out there who love to get their work out there (I don't know why, but we've all been through it.) Young writers love social media. To attract writers, you appeal to a young audience.

            Thus, another reason why a new rating system would come in handy; young writers, sadly, tend to produce young writer results. And then the following happens: the older writers--those who have written more, experienced more, and understand more (usually)--will be able to get their writing out in the front, for the young writers to see and say "wow!" and keep writing and keep telling their friends about this amazing "new" website that's improving their writing ability, thus bringing in more visitors. Well, in theory, this would work. But as I said, I'm no marketer.

            And you're probably right End, the site should have as much up time as possible, but any site you'd like to see again won't turn most away. Once a site gets into your bookmarks, it tends to stick around for a while. I know I forget great websites all the time, so I always save them :P

            Comment


            • #7
              Well as far as the forums go, there might be a few reasons for the emptiness.

              These forums aren't the original ones. The original ones were more closely linked to the main writing site, basically if you logged on the main site you were also logged into the forums which made things a little quicker. Some people are probably lazy and don't want to bother signing onto a forum that doesn't have much going on in the first place.

              Then on more than one occasion the forums have gotten "locked down." Once on the old forums when one member was acting like an idiot and pissing off Sev.

              The more recent lock down lasted like a year or so on these forums and it was due to all the spam ads this place was getting so basically nobody could actually join the forums (And Sev disappeared again so he wasn't around to allow any new people in either) or rather they could join, but they couldn't actually post anything. This caused the amusing effect that if anyone was determined enough to get a message through, one of the existing members had to act as some weird internet medium and post for them.

              Then there was another time when this place was infested with spam ads so bad we had to all post in the Site Announcements section (Amusingly in the "Help me fight forum spam" thread).

              The problem is somewhat fixed now that DEP's a mod since he's around more frequently to buzz people in (and can delete spam). Still probably inconvenient to some people though.

              In general though, I have no idea why the forums have always been a ghost town. I remember asking that question even back in like 2004-2005, since I always wondered why we had large groups of people that signed up, but didn't write or even rate anything. I assume they were all just readers, but then you can read stuff on here without actually having to go through the registration process.

              Now there have been a few limited successes of getting people to post on the forums. Basically in the past I've noticed some lurker or writer that's done something of note (Usually a lot of sudden funny comments or perhaps some unusual story) and I'll make a thread mentioning their name in the newbie section by their name. For some baffling reason this has actually worked without said person even calling me an asshole. (Go figure) They usually don't stick around very long, but it's something I guess.

              So I have to believe to some degree the forum must be being read by the lurkers as well. There was a theory by an old member that some of the more…uh…"unique" forum posters repelled the average lurker from actually posting. On one hand I can see that point of view since I do know we can get pretty crude around here, but then again even before the more entertaining crowd showed up the forums were still pretty empty. In my personal opinion they were even a bit boring, but I'm a little biased in that regard.

              Not sure if this is a possible answer for the lack of visitors, but when the forums became filled with a shitload of drama (and dick jokes) this place might've gotten a little more popular due to lurkers reading the forums. Of course the drama has long since died down now, so less visitors.

              Quick somebody go get another Ves, Chubby and drums, we need to liven the place up!
              Last edited by End Master; 04-04-2013, 02:54 PM.
              Writing: It's more fun than a barrel of Ebola ridden monkeys!

              Comment


              • #8
                look, if you want to have this shit looked at, then

                make it shorter

                I cant read all this lol. i mean maybe theres some good shit in here, but no one is going to bother with that much text. Its like a fucking book



                pic related. No one reads that shit either. Ur lying if you say you have read it beginning to end. that is part of the problem with our government.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MadBaggins View Post
                  I cant read all this lol. i mean maybe theres some good shit in here, but no one is going to bother with that much text. Its like a fucking book
                  It actually makes me sad that this is a real response to ANYTHING on a writing site. I'll stop there so he might read this.
                  Dragavan: Dragavan Games - Lootin' Wizards - The Land of Karn - Central U (adult) - Dragavan's Adult Stories

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