CYS Involvement in the IS contest.

[End Master]

Here, settle this blasted thing once and for all.

EDIT: Bah, I worded that a little akwardly. Oh well, you all get the idea.

[Vesnic]

I have read through everyone's opinions on this.

First and foremost, we are inviting CYS to take part in our competition, a competition that was created on IS according to our priorities and site capabilities. As such, it will be understood that they will conform to these pre-existing rules. The idea that it would be more "fair" to get their input on theme, structure and venue is a misguided one: this was not a joint venture from the beginning, in which both parties had equal sway. This is, once again, an invitation on the part of IS, to our friends at CYS, to participate in the Infinite Writing Tournament. It is up to them to either accept these terms or to decline participation.

With regard to the differing features on the two sites, the main problem is that we cannot have too many confounding variables that will get in the way of judging. Giving the members of CYS full use of their advanced editor is problematic for several reasons. First of all, it is already understood that CYS and IS, though both embracing the CYOA format, have developed their capabilities due to some very different ideological stances. A simplified way of stating this is that IS tends to favor quality of writing and development of story while CYS tends to favor the gaming aspects and other programming enhancements that allow for these aspects. There will presumably already be a bias amongst the various members towards the strengths of their own respective sites. Allowing for these differences to go unimpeded will only enhance this schism. Secondly, it just does not make sense, when making any sort of a comparison, to judge as equal two things which are inherently so different. If this isn't a case of apples and oranges, I don't know what is. For judging to be fair, we need to equalize the starting line as much as possible. Finally, I will refer back to the fact that this is an invitational contest hosted by IS. Our standards, for writing quality and story development, are thus the standards by which this whole competition should be judged.

Following on this idea, the technical aspects of our site form the mold to which all entries must conform. No structural element should be allowed that CYS possesses but which is impossible to replicate in some way on IS. Notice that I am not ruling out those aspects which are done more elegantly on CYS, but which are also possible on IS with a little more work and ingenuity. However, any use of advanced editing capabilities unique to CYS should be grounds for immediate disqualification from this contest.

As for the venue, it would be easiest to host the contest here on IS. My only hesitation is that doing so will make it seem like we are merely absorbing the efforts of several of CYS' members in making them essentially our own members. I know that pride runs high on both sites, so I think the best option is actually to proceed as we had originally intended, with entries received on both sites. We just need to be absolutely clear about what the expectations are, which features can be used, and what are the judging criteria.

I know that some of you may be disappointed by this. However, this is just one contest in many. The development of IS2 will hopefully allow us to reevaluate what it is that we find most important about our site, and what, if any new features we will choose to incorporate. This joint contest with CYS is a testing of the waters. If all goes well, we can always change the rules and expectations for further contests, and do so in a way that includes input from both sites from the very beginning.

[Locke]

That's a nice, reasonable post; I can agree with that. I don't really care about the minor tools too much, but they must be able to post to their own site. They'll have to come over here to read our stuff for the vote - maybe we'll even pick up a new member or two that way - but if we post to CYS, "Come enter our contest," I doubt we'll get much - if any - of a response.

I'm going to be unpopular for this one, but I might as well go ahead and say that I view this as a true joint contest, not an IS contest CYSers are entering. We intiated it, we host it, and we retain rights to determine the rules and such as hosts, but the "it's our damned contest, post to our site, do as we say" attitude can only hurt the chances of achieving any of the things we started this for. The participants ought to be treated as honorary IS members who happen to post elsewhere in a different format for the purposes of the contest, if the idea of "separate but equal" is hard to stomach

Following on this idea, the technical aspects of our site form the mold to which all entries must conform. No structural element should be allowed that CYS possesses but which is impossible to replicate in some way on IS. Notice that I am not ruling out those aspects which are done more elegantly on CYS, but which are also possible on IS with a little more work and ingenuity. However, any use of advanced editing capabilities unique to CYS should be grounds for immediate disqualification from this contest.

I'm not familiar with all the tools they have at their disposal. If we allow a limited set as you're suggesting, someone who knows both systems, if possible, should help clarify.

EDIT: The poll options aren't ideal - choosing between tool use and posting the stories here? - but I believe in a limited tool set for CYS and the choice to post on either or both sites. I'm not sure the results will even matter in light of the discussion, which seems capable of resolving things, but I've chosen Inventories as it seems closest of what's available to my thoughts.

[Hi! My name is: Katie]

I have strong feelings about a lot of what is going on right now with all these changes. It seems a lot of people have pretty strong feelings about this stuff... I didn't really expect that. It's good that we are putting things to a vote and deciding as a community since these decisions set a precedent for future contests.

On this specific vote, I am inclined to give the CYS competitors as much freedom as possible. I don't feel at a disadvantage because they have other toys that I do not have. In fact, I'm rather enthusiastic about seeing how their toys work without having to go over there and start writing on that site.

As for CYS having a vote in the IS decisions... I didn't know they were holding votes over there. If CYS members come over and join IS, then they embrace dual citizenship. JJJ for instance has been a member here since September 2007, so I wouldn't knock him out if he wanted to vote. Personally, I don't see this as a problem though we have not had a major influx of CYS personalities.

and now... having expressed my feelings, I shall go find my husband and play with his toes.

Cheers!
~Katie

Just read Locke's post. I totally agree with him about this being a true joint contest. He and I shall be unpopular together on this.

[JJJ-thebanisher]

I appreciate the notion Katie but I'm not voting. Last time I did, I sparked a little bit of an annoyed response:

3J, there was a whole discussion about this in the other thread that probably really would have been useful reading for you before you chose to vote. I know it's water under the bridge at this point, but the fact that you even participated is sort of, well...I'll put it this way. I hope it's like you've just sent your deposit to IS University. You will be attending in the coming months, and taking the full course load which naturally includes the required class, Contest 101.

And one more thing. Drag had mentioned this before. Here they are just stories, not story-games.

I may or may not participate in this contest, I haven't decided, so I'm not sure if I'm allowed to vote or not. Oh, and just so's ya know Ves, I did read the other thread. I didn't see the point in mentioning that at the time.

I'm not familiar with all the tools they have at their disposal. If we allow a limited set as you're suggesting, someone who knows both systems, if possible, should help clarify.

The tools over at CYS include but are not limited to Variables, Scripting and Items. This means that people reading through the stories can collect items that will affect link choices later on (or can even be used to move from one page to another). Scripting allows page text to be edited based on variables and variables allow links to be shown, not shown, health recorded, etc. There are lots of articles.

Anyways, regardless of my own participation, I wish you all lots of luck on a plentiful amount of contest entries, I don't think you'll receive much of a challenge from CYS (There are probably three or four writers over there who are at an IS level and that's it). One or two of them definitely resent the "Vesnic" attitude towards the contest and will definitely not be entering. The other two are very busy and hopefully do find time.

EDIT: OH and by the way, End, I'm not sure what you mean by inventories, if you mean Items, then they're not even used that much anyway, variables are much better and can be used behind the scenes to not interfere with the writing, and there's no option limited to that. Voting for "inventories" only is a little misguided, I'd think. I think it's difficult to understand how you can use the advanced editor to better your writing until you actually learn how it works.

[Dragavan]

The tools over at CYS include but are not limited to Variables, Scripting and Items. This means that people reading through the stories can collect items that will affect link choices later on (or can even be used to move from one page to another). Scripting allows page text to be edited based on variables and variables allow links to be shown, not shown, health recorded, etc. There are lots of articles.

This is why I have trouble calling them stories... they are games. Our contests here for story writing, not game design. Not really gonna get into it, but I wanted to say that much.

As for the contest, I am a bit of a site purist. I honestly don't care of CYSers decide to come over here an write stories for this site in our contest, but I am not at all for making our contest an open multi-site thing. If we wanted to do something like that, then start something new of your own from scratch. This contest is our contest on this site that was made to pump up the quality and quantity of stories on our site. Call me a curmudgeon if you will, but that's how I feel.

[JJJ-thebanisher]

Hey man, there's nothing wrong with that, but remember that CYS does have basic storygames (any CYOA is a storygame in my opinion) too. An example being Magus: Betrayel. It's as much a story as any story over here. Remember too that a lot of that can go on behind the scenes and you'd never know it existed if you weren't told about it (in some storygames). It really just makes life easier for the writer.

Edit: By "there's nothing wrong with that", I mean about your ideology about site-building, etc.

[Hi! My name is: Katie]

Drag... you are a curmudgeon. However, I know what you mean about the objective of the contest being to increase the quantity of quality stories on IS.

If we define that as the goal of our contests above all else then it would be counter productive to include submissions made on the other site. If instead our goal is to help writers expand and challenge themselves in new ways then we should include all the writers from CYS that wish to participate allow them to submit there toys and all. Those objectives are very different, and if the contest is to improve IS I defer to Drag's logic, if however it is to improve individual writers without concern for alliances then I maintain my former position.

I wouldn't mind however establishing two contests one for each objective. If anyone else is interested perhaps that would solve a few problems.

[JJJ-thebanisher]

Pardon me but how does allowing stories to be posted on CYS limit the amount of stories being posted over here? You're really not going to lure many if any people from CYS to post stories over here, so if you want to expand the contest you're probably going to want to allow them to post over there.

[Hi! My name is: Katie]

Pardon me but how does allowing stories to be posted on CYS limit the amount of stories being posted over here? You're really not going to lure many if any people from CYS to post stories over here, so if you want to expand the contest you're probably going to want to allow them to post over there.

Yes. I realize that. I wasn't around for the first infinite contest, but one of the goals as it has been explained to me was to increase the number of quality stories. The other objective was to challenge writers to focus on a theme they might otherwise not choose for themselves.

Now, if we are trying steadfastly to increase the number of quality stories then it doesn't make sense to allow stories to be posted on another site.

Contrariwise if we are trying to encourage writers to try things they might not otherwise try then it is ideal to allow people to write using either site's features.

It does not necessarily limit the number of quality stories on this site, but suppose I choose to post on CYS instead of IS for this contest... I am then rejecting one of the original goals of the contest.

[JJJ-thebanisher]

I hadn't thought of members from here posting over there, it didn't cross my mind, sorry. I suppose if that were the case, then yeah, it wouldn't make much sense.

[Vesnic]

It's good that we are putting things to a vote and deciding as a community since these decisions set a precedent for future contests.

Actually, I never put this particular question to a vote. End did. Nice try to override me.

I think I will play my dictator card now and mandate that CYS not be allowed to utilize any of the features that we can't at least in some way match on IS. The vote is going that way anyway.

Edit: And 3J and Co., it's nothing personal. It just doesn't make sense from a judging perspective if the stories to be judged are too disparate.

[End Master]

Ves stop blowing shit out of proportion as usual, you've been one of the main ones complaining about the whole "administrative process" of organizing this new contest anyway and claiming that various people are giving you grief indirectly about it. And you wonder why I said you fly off the handle at the drop of a hat.

I posted the poll since people were bitching about the topic and someone needed to address the situation once and for all. Nobody was "overriding" you.

That being said so are you stating that anyone from CYS just can't use their tools, but CAN post on their own site, because the current poll results are indicating that the votes are swinging in favor of them having to just post their stories over here.

[Vesnic]

Did you even read my post? Like, any of it? I was pretty specific about the tools, etc., and no, I didn't rule everything out.

I would really appreciate if you'd stop saying that I am blowing things out of proportion. All of my posts in this and the previous thread have been quite logical and yes, there has been some overstepping of boundaries here. I am still entitled as the contest winner to make certain decisions for the next contest. Call that flying off the handle if you will. I call it basic observation.

If people want to change the winner's ability to decide on a theme and organize the next contest, that's fine by me. However, you cannot make it retroactively apply to this current contest.

[Dragavan]

I don't see how Ves would get any form of absolute say in this matter anyway... The "reward" for winning the contest was always simply to choose the next topic. NOT to change the rules, set contest parameters, change focus, or anything else... Just to choose the next topic.

The rest should be up to the community as a whole anyone in the community can initiate a poll or ask for opinions and a vote at any time, since we have no de-facto "leader" here other than Severnz (who was never really involved in the creation of this contest).