CYS Involvement in the IS contest.

[Usoki]

That is an agrument for another place and another time. And it's one that you won't be able to win around here, JJJ. I will admit I enjoy the thought of variables, but only because I have 22 duplicate rooms to keep track of a variable manually. This problem could also be solved by simpling asking the reader a question, and having them choose the answer- but this allows the reader to choose the correct path even if they didn't earn it, which my perfectionism says is unacceptable.

Having random number generators and item inventories is just silly to me. And that's why I'm a member of IS. I am also aware that this view means I'd be in the minority over in CYS. If I ever wrote anything over there, it'd be ridiculously linear in comparison.

Thank you for editting out the script jabber.

[JJJ-thebanisher]

Yeah, that makes it complicated, no doubt about it and a variable would help, perfectionism gets in the way of ease, but the finished product will be worth it and it will probably make the stats of the story seem more impressive than they really are. . .

Anyways, I don't really care about winning that debate, I've voiced my opinion and hopefully it gets accepted if not agreed with :P

In conclusion, good luck with the contest guys

[Dragavan]

I disagree with you. I believe that any time you introduce ANY interactivity (like links) to a story, it becomes a storygame.

I completely disagree with that statement... by that logic the movie CLUE was a MovieGame because it had three different endings and you had to choose which one you were going to get by choosing to see it in different theaters (yes, they have all three on the home video/TV version), but it wasn't. It was just a really funny movie that you had three endings to choose from. There was no game to it.

Just giving someone choice doesn't make it a game. I can choose all sorts of things, even in very linear books and movies, if the creator was good enough at leaving things open to interpretation. Look at Pan's Labyrinth, for example (and if you haven't seen it... good Zod man, go out and get it now. It's an amazing movie). They leave the actual events of the movie completely up to interpretation, especially at the end. You can talk to three different people and get three completely different takes on what happened at the end. They all fit and they are all valid, it's just a matter of how you choose to interpret it. But that doesn't make it a game either.

The difference with a CYOA story is that the choices are made obvious and given different text. In the end you are still reading a linear story, but one you chose to go through along a certain path. The main aspect missing from a CYOA that completely prevents it from being a game is that of challenge. There is no challenge in a standard CYOA story, as it is just a story you read from start to end. One could also say that they are lacking in any real form of goals or rules, but that could be argued as even the act of reading a book from start to end, without jumping around from chapter to chapter at will, could be considered an unwritten rule and the goal might be said to "finish" the story, but I don't see these as true to the meaning of what goals and rules are supposed to be in a game.

By the way, these key components of what makes something a game that I am referencing are "goals, rules, challenge, and interaction" (commonly accepted as the core components among many groups of game players and designers, even though they often disagree beyond these elements when they start talking about other "required components" of game). There are also some much older definitions and published books on gaming that get far more into theory and the history of games to create much more complicated definitions, but at their core they still hold these base elements to be true. If you really want to see some hard core and extremely annoying threads on just trying to define game, RPG, and even types of gamers, you should check out The Forge forums on theory (they even make me sick with how deep they get into it).

So, I am not going to agree with you here and although I do accept that you don't agree with me I can't just let it go without over-clarifying my point, because it's something I feel strongly about (being a game designer and a writer). There is crossover, and can have some muddy ground where they meet, but they are not the same thing.

----

Also, I didn't say say that all you can do with the CYS engine is create games, I just said that the fact that the engine is built around variables, randomness, and collecting items means that it was BUILT for games. Just as D&D 4e is built for combat encounters and leveling up of potential combat powers, and not courtly meetings. That doesn't mean you can't have a good non-combat game about activities between the dukes of the land in the kings court using D&D 4e as the base for the rules, it just means that it was really built to fight monsters and gain experience.

You can make perfectly acceptable CYOA stories using the CYS engine (by mostly ignoring a lot of the scripting features designed to make games), just as you can actually make a game using the IS engine (and a LOT of extra work and repeated rooms), but each one is better suited for what they were designed for. You should always use the correct tools for the job you are doing.

And, honestly, if I had the time to do it I would love to use the CYS engine to make a text adventure (I never use the term Story Game if I can help it, but that's because of the terms adoption by a certain branch of the Indie RPG market). I used to love making them when I was a young programmer with all summer to waste between school years and no worries or responsibilities.

[Hi! My name is: Katie]

In fact, I think it would a great idea to do two contests a year (about 6 months total each, like 5 months to write and the other month for judgement and what not) and only have one of them being our standard old contest... Let the other half of the year be dedicated to some new type of writing contest, like a joint venture between our sites... Or something else completely if people would rather have that. Hell, you could make all sorts of new rule, like no room number limits, word counts, or whatever you want... Even give them new criteria for judging.

Just my take on all this... feel free to ignore it if you wish.

I would actually love to see this happen! I mean, we had enough people interested in the Myth theme here and on CYS to just use that theme. If we are going to start a second contest now would be the perfect time. As long as the deadline is approximately six months from the IS deadline either before or after, then I could do both contests. It would really be a pleasure to see what stories CYS would come up with for myths/folklore. If anyone else is interested we should work with CYS and come up with some guidelines.

[JJJ-thebanisher]

Hey Dragavan, you really opened my eyes a bit with that post, man. To be honest, I wasn't expecting to be swayed on the matter but that's pretty persuasive. I do think a lot of it comes down to your attitude when beginning the erm..computer based thing with words that I can't give a name right now... if you start the..computer based thing with words that I can't give a name right now... with the intention of reading a story, then you are reading a story, but if you start the erm..computer based thing with words that I can't give a name right now... with the intention of finishing it with a specific ending or finishing it without dying or whatever, then you have all four of those requirements.

Call it open for interpretation?

EDIT: Katie, it's a really interesting idea. The populous over there has never worked well with themes so if you get it to work, big props!

[JJJ-thebanisher]

EDIT: Whoops Double Post, ish thing.

[wolfen44]

What is CYS ?????? Im in the dark

[Usoki]

I'm pretty sure if you looked at this thread closer, you'd figure out it's a site comparable to IS. Hell, there's even a hyperlink in the middle of this thread.

[wolfen44]

Wow im thick skulled some times did'nt even see the definititon and the hyperlink sorry

[Usoki]

Only sometimes?

[wolfen44]

Funny story though i fell out of a window when i was 3 and landed on my head and a large rock with out breaking it no concussion no nothing i do have a thick skull

[Ryan_DuBois]

Something did happen, though, right? Isn't that how your alter ego, Mr. Anselm11, was born?

[wolfen44]

Something did happen, though, right? Isn't that how your alter ego, Mr. Anselm11, was born?

Actually that came from a deep depression that came through when i was 12 thats when Anselm was born