Tiller the Baby Killer

[ChubbyTeletubby]

So I try to be a little more progressive in my views these days. For instance, when it comes to stem cells derived from human embryos that are going to be used to further scientific research that will better all humans - I'm okay with that.

Not a huge fan of it, but I can understand where the proponents are coming from.

I understand abortion is a very personal subject, and one most people don't like to discuss. I do consider myself more of a pro-lifer. But I understand it's a very hard decision for a woman to make.

I do consider the disproportionate number of black babies aborted to be a form of genocide. Just throwing that in there.

And I do consider Dr. Tiller to be a murderer. After 21 weeks he still does these abortions. These babies have brains, hearts, and they can feel pain. And the manner in which they slaughter these babies makes me sick to my stomach.

So when Tiller got shot in the face yesterday I drank a toast to his death, along with a couple others.

This made a few people angry at the house I was at, and I pretty much told them to go fuck themselves or get their facts straight. One or the other. Then I left. Probably not going back over there, lol.

Anyone else happy this cock sucker died or am I the only crazy?

And the fact that it was in his church in front of his wife just makes me that much happier. I dunno.

I think maybe I'm a bad person. At least I don't murder babies, though. At least he can't go on slaughtering tens of thousands of real actual human beings who have no say in their future.

I'd like to shake the hand of the man who shot him, too. I guess I really am a bad person.

[xnull]

May I suggest that you watch the documentary "Soldier's in the Army of God?"

I wish below to discuss, academically, the morality of the situation. I mention many things. It is not intended to reply in any specific way to your post. They are thoughts and observations.

I consider the destruction of a person a terrible thing. The many years of experience and mental labor which goes about creating a unique perspective of the universe is hardly something to shake a stick at. Unique perspective is valuable (we could go into a discussion about why this is, but I don't have the resources to discuss it quite now and here), and therefore the personalities which are necessary to create unique perspective are valuable. (This value isn't guaranteed -> like anything it follows a supply and demand - it can have diminishing returns. However, at least within the scope of the universe realistically searchable by the human race, we are alone in the universe. This gives rise to a more hidden and more powerful value - that of the rarity of consciousness in the void of space). In this discussion we must be careful to note the disparity between "human" and "person". A person is a unique self-conscious entity, regardless of its race (or mechanical makeup). A human has specifically 46 chromosomes and is of the genus "Homo Sapien" (although we also include Downers). Being human isn't necessary for consciousness. These sorts of things are why its a generally accepted practice to kill ants and bees, but not horses and dolphins. How the supply/demand ratio and the capacity for personality affect common attitudes on the morality of killing are easily seen in this last example.

Humankind is overpopulated and fetuses are not of particular value because they are easily created and do not carry with them unique perspectives of the universe. (They carry with them the potential for this unique trait, but we can not judge the morality of this by a potential, as this would implicate everyone in potential crimes they might possibly have committed or naughty thoughts they might potentially have had.) [Aside - parts of this were in the premise of Minority Report]. Here we have a supply/demand analysis of the fetus and we have revealed a fallacy. The category mistake of grouping human and person appear here. A fetus, while human, is not a person. It is not a person until it has a personality. A personality does grow (from what I can tell) during the very late fetal stages and explodes during infancy and childhood. Essentially what I am trying to get at here is this: human life isn't precious - we have fucktons of humans. What's underneath is what's precious. To kill a human without removing "the underneath" is not a terrible thing.

The confusion between humans and people is a considerably easy one to make, and therefore is almost excusable.

The desperation and hard decisions required for a woman to terminate a pregnancy is powerful and definitely grows exponentially in the later stages of pregnancy. This means that the woman, if she does decide to get an abortion at a late date, is very determined to go through with it. This doctor was playing the same game as the "Credit Angels", the risky stock decisions, the venture capitalists, black market operatives, [the bankers of America pre-economic dip]. Some entities prefer to play safer games, ones well within moral/legal/statistical boundaries. These safe games are most usually less profittable. The game on the outside are riskier to play but bring in more cash. Someone is going to fill the Doctor's place. There is a demand. Someone will supply. (On the node: Native Americans are starting to do abortions - the United States cannot prevent them). If there is no supply and still demand, women will seek dangerous DIY methods, or will travel abroad where abortions are not questioned (I indirectly know someone who did this).

I just pulled an all nighter, so fuck you for not being able to read my rambly unorganized sentence. Fuck off. I'm falling asleep.

[apotheosis]

I'm going to have to completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you Chubby for many reasons.

First off, I'm not a proponent of late term abortion. I think once the child is capable of living outside the womb, probably sometime during the second trimester, there should be a cut off except under extenuating circumstances.

That being said, to claim you are pro-life and to go around killing people is the kind of hypocrisy that is destroying this country. Those who argue they are preventing murder are full of shit, because there are a hundred doctors ready to replace Tiller. The only thing this murder does is bring sympathy to the pro-choice cause and further polarizing and radicalizing the remaining pro-lifers. If someone really wants to stop "baby killing" as they call it, then diplomatic means and legislation are the only way to successfully do so.

Personally, I'd rather a baby be killed than raised by parents who did not want it. Better to terminate a life than to subject a child to a life of abuse and neglect. By the same token, I don't think abortions should be frivolous. Either way, its probably not the governments decision.

You disappoint me Chubby.

[ChubbyTeletubby]

See, I'm not one of those Army of God guys. I don't believe that THIS is how you further a cause, whether it be the pro-life cause or saving pygmies from pygmie foot & mouth disease or something.

Or something.

Anyway, I guess I'm a walking contradiction. While I'm happy the old bastard is dead, I definitely think that the man who murdered him was misguided.

Not evil. Misguided. I would give him 5-10 in a minimum security prison. Maybe eligible for parole in 8.

And for the most part I keep my nose out of the abortion debate. But this Tiller guy was a real monster. There's just no other way to look at it. I can tolerate the Planned Parenthood clowns but this Tiller guy just took it to another level that is

EVIL

So while I don't think this was something that's gonna help the pro-life cause, I do know it makes me happy. Kinda funny, actually. He got shot in the face at church while his wife was in the choir!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Oh, and as far as that Eminem vs. Bruno fiasco at the MTV Movie Awards last night. I think it was staged.

Anyone else?

EDIT: This was written before reading xnull and apoth's thoughtful posts. So I may be editing this one.

[ChubbyTeletubby]

I'm going to have to completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you Chubby for many reasons.

First off, I'm not a proponent of late term abortion. I think once the child is capable of living outside the womb, probably sometime during the second trimester, there should be a cut off except under extenuating circumstances.

That being said, to claim you are pro-life and to go around killing people is the kind of hypocrisy that is destroying this country. Those who argue they are preventing murder are full of shit, because there are a hundred doctors ready to replace Tiller. The only thing this murder does is bring sympathy to the pro-choice cause and further polarizing and radicalizing the remaining pro-lifers. If someone really wants to stop "baby killing" as they call it, then diplomatic means and legislation are the only way to successfully do so.

Personally, I'd rather a baby be killed than raised by parents who did not want it. Better to terminate a life than to subject a child to a life of abuse and neglect. By the same token, I don't think abortions should be frivolous. Either way, its probably not the governments decision.

You disappoint me Chubby.

Actually there aren't that many doctors who do what Tiller does. There's like what, two other clinics in the ENTIRE COUNTRY that perform these sorts of abortions?

And I've never said I'm a pro-lifer or a Christian or a conservative. I just lean that way when it comes to some issues. I can definitely see the hypocracy in saying you are a 'pro-lifer' and then smiling when someone dies.

Like I do. Quite often.

The pendulum has swung to the pro-life side in recent years, with over half of Americans claiming to be pro-life. This act of murder will not further the cause. It will polarize the debate.

But I'm just acting on gut impulses here.

I just see it cut and dry. This man knowingly and deliberately killed baby humans that had fingerprints and eyes and brains and hearts and the list goes on. He killed tens of thousands of them with no remorse.

I could detail to you how it's done, but I don't think it's really appropriate.

Now xnull's argument is about the stupidest thing I've ever read. If that argument is what passes for an "Academic approach" in this day and age then God fucking help us.

"A fetus, while human, is not a person. It is not a person until it has a personality. A personality does grow (from what I can tell) during the very late fetal stages and explodes during infancy and childhood. Essentially what I am trying to get at here is this: human life isn't precious - we have fucktons of humans. What's underneath is what's precious. To kill a human without removing "the underneath" is not a terrible thing.

The confusion between humans and people is a considerably easy one to make, and therefore is almost excusable." -xnull

Almost excusable? What are you even talking about? This could be something taken straight from Hitler's mouth in 1937.

It's this kind of reasoning that leads to Jews being slaughtered in the millions. And I'm not blowing things out of proportion here! It's this kind of backward logic that I despise.

Now I'm no religious nut, but I do believe in my heart of hearts that there is the spark of the divine in EVERY human, whether they still be in the mother's womb or they're 50 years old. "Personality" or no. I've known plenty of people without personalities, lol. I guess we better round them up and make 'em in to Soilent Green! MmmmMmmm!

Just becauce there's "fucktons" of us doesn't make the individual less important.

I don't know, man. Every word of your little diatribe on fetuses sounded like rhetoric spewed from the mouth of Adolf fucking Hitler. Not even sure how to respond to some of your statements.

Doesn't ANYONE see where I'm coming from here!?!?!?!

And remember, I'm not for rounding up all the abortion doctors and killing them. I think most of them believe they're doing a necessary job. But two wrongs never make a right, and just because the child may not have the best parents doesn't mean it gives us the right to destroy a life in the making, with fingerprints and a unique DNA.

In the end I think Obama has taken a wise approach on the subject, asking for both sides to be civil.

Well, excuse me, Obama, xnull, apoth, and whoever else. But when I see a child murderer gunned down I can't help but smile. Because there's no other word for it. It is the killing of human beings. Not fetuses.

In the longterm I don't think it's going to make much of an impact on the country. America is trending toward a more responsible approach to abortion, and that's good. With the way technology is going, women who are given ultra-sounds of their 'WORTHLESS FETUS' don't go through with their abortion 90 percent of the time.

Maybe it's the fact that they can see the little heart beating, or it's individual fingers, or what have you.

I'm disappointed in Xnull.

Apoth you had some pretty intelligent insights.

But Xnull, you need to explain yourself a little better. I can't believe you actually feel this way.

EDIT: AND THANKS, GUYS! Apoth and xnull, for replying. It's not a subject that I usually discuss in public. I can definitely see the "logic" in your views, and it definitely challenges me to think - really THINK - about how I feel.

Um, so don't take anything personal. I was definitely out of line last night when I made that toast to his death. It was impulsive. I definitely don't speak for the majority of those on the pro-life side of the aisle.

I guess I'd have to say that logically, the murder was probably wrong? I guess? I just don't feel a shred of remorse for the man. Maybe it's something I need to work on.

[Megamantn]

I'm glad tiller's dead. He is nothing but a cold hearted baby murderer so expect him to rot in hell while the conservatives go dancing on his grave. The bastard had his murder coming!

I bet $5,000 that most conservative radio personalities are ranting about tiller being an evil baby killer & applauding his death like I am.

Please note: Megamantn IS affiliated with a christian anti-abortion protest group.

[ChubbyTeletubby]

Great, Mega.

Thanks. Just who I need to lend my side some credibility.

Thank you so much!

[apotheosis]

If nothing else, I think Megaman's advocacy of this murder should make you question your stance.

I've already stated that I think murdering a doctor is incredibly wrong on every level, but to jump to the broader debate on pro-life versus pro-choice. The pro-lifers can't have it both ways. They don't want abortions but at the same time they do not support contraceptive efforts. If you really want to cut down on abortion, subsidize the pill and hand it out to girls in any demographic that has a high incidence of abortion.

I say the pill and not condoms because people don't use condoms reliably and it doesn't feel as good with them on, bottom line. You cannot trust people to use them in the heat of the moment, but if you can get girls to use chemical means to prevent it, then no pregnancy = no abortion. Everyone wins.

[ChubbyTeletubby]

If nothing else, I think Megaman's advocacy of this murder should make you question your stance.

I've already stated that I think murdering a doctor is incredibly wrong on every level, but to jump to the broader debate on pro-life versus pro-choice. The pro-lifers can't have it both ways. They don't want abortions but at the same time they do not support contraceptive efforts. If you really want to cut down on abortion, subsidize the pill and hand it out to girls in any demographic that has a high incidence of abortion.

I say the pill and not condoms because people don't use condoms reliably and it doesn't feel as good with them on, bottom line. You cannot trust people to use them in the heat of the moment, but if you can get girls to use chemical means to prevent it, then no pregnancy = no abortion. Everyone wins.

Well, there's plenty of morons on both sides. And I agree that we should be doing more to address the issue of teen pregnancy.

I'm not one of those who thinks it's 'encouraging' sexual promiscuity to hand out the pill.

I think, for one thing, condoms are cheaper. That's why they tend to hand out those more.

But we're just not gonna agree on the Tiller thing. Like I said, I don't 'support' the murder. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna shed a tear. And I still sorta feel he had it coming.

[Megamantn]

I agree with you on condoms but they can be torn during intercourse and can lead to pregnancy. The pill is effective but can cause complications of use. You may remember some birth control fiascos that led to injuries, deaths & lawsuits.

Remember Ortha Evra's birth control patch?

[Usoki]

Frankly, I would like to address the issue of Tiller's exact death. Abortion is a very controvercial question, full of all sorts of morally grey areas. I don't know how I feel about it. But I know damn well how I feel about the Tiller situation. Keep in mind I am from the Wichita area, and was in the middle of all of the news as it broke.

Scott Roeder knew damn well what he was doing. He was not misguided or confused in any manner. He is a dangerous unstable man who believes that murder is a perfectly justifiable responce to something legally right and morally grey. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was arrested on the Kansas Turnpike just south of Kansas City. He was driving the speed limit, and did not resist arrest or question why he had been pulled over.

The entire community is up in arms. I'm in the middle of Bible Belt central, and we're still all in mourning. All of the thumpers who once stood outside of the clinic with signs, protesting and praying for the unborn children? They are now outside the clinic, praying for Dr. Tiller and his surviving family. Pro-life or pro-choice; it doesn't matter. There as some things that are not morally grey. This was an unspeakable tragedy. Whether or not you think he had it coming to him, whether or not you agree with what he did, it is an unforgivable tragedy.

His wife was in the sanctuary, as a part of the choir. Dr. Tiller was outside, in the lobby. Roeder walked in, shot him, and left. Inside of a church, of all places. I'd really like an explanation of how someone is adamantly pro-life can take someone else's life inside of such a holy place.

Chubby? Mmph.

Mega? Rot. In. Hell.

[Megamantn]

Mega? Rot. In. Hell.

No, You rot in hell. We ain't talkin' bout me or you. We talkin bout Tiller!

The only thing I don't like about the murder is that it was at a church & it was a sunday too. That's at least where I heard the shooting was at.

Therefore the killer's gonna rot in the same hellpit as his victim and there's nothing we can do about it except laugh when somebody in hell starts a rampage. Every time an evil soul starts a rampage in hell, We laugh.

So, I think we should just make a poll about this issue & vote on wether or not Tiller should've or shouldn't have died because the abortion killings he made.

[End Master]

Therefore the killer's gonna rot in the same hellpit as his victim and there's nothing we can do about it except laugh when somebody in hell starts a rampage. Every time an evil soul starts a rampage in hell, We laugh.

Why would Tiller be rotting in hell? He's sitting at God's table with Hitler right now.

And why would you be laughing at someone starting a rampage in hell? I mean you're going to be there when you die since you're a sodomite and all, so wouldn't you be concerned about getting fucked up even more in the rampage?

[ChubbyTeletubby]

Frankly, I would like to address the issue of Tiller's exact death. Abortion is a very controvercial question, full of all sorts of morally grey areas. I don't know how I feel about it. But I know damn well how I feel about the Tiller situation. Keep in mind I am from the Wichita area, and was in the middle of all of the news as it broke.

Scott Roeder knew damn well what he was doing. He was not misguided or confused in any manner. He is a dangerous unstable man who believes that murder is a perfectly justifiable responce to something legally right and morally grey. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was arrested on the Kansas Turnpike just south of Kansas City. He was driving the speed limit, and did not resist arrest or question why he had been pulled over.

The entire community is up in arms. I'm in the middle of Bible Belt central, and we're still all in mourning. All of the thumpers who once stood outside of the clinic with signs, protesting and praying for the unborn children? They are now outside the clinic, praying for Dr. Tiller and his surviving family. Pro-life or pro-choice; it doesn't matter. There as some things that are not morally grey. This was an unspeakable tragedy. Whether or not you think he had it coming to him, whether or not you agree with what he did, it is an unforgivable tragedy.

His wife was in the sanctuary, as a part of the choir. Dr. Tiller was outside, in the lobby. Roeder walked in, shot him, and left. Inside of a church, of all places. I'd really like an explanation of how someone is adamantly pro-life can take someone else's life inside of such a holy place.

Chubby? Mmph.

Mega? Rot. In. Hell.

Unspeakable tragedy?

Really?

Search your soul, usoki. Really?

Or is Karma a real thing? I think it is.

I feel in my gut this bastard had it coming, and if none of you agree with me....fine.

If mega is my only ally, fine.

But I know in my heart of hearts that babies killed after 21 weeks are real HUMANS - real PEOPLE. Have you seen an abortion performed?

And fuck all of you blind cattle (well, fuck....usoki.....except not really......sorry)for refusing to take a stance on the issue. I for one will continue to rejoice over this evil man's death, but by no means do I wish death on any other 'doctors'.

Unless, of course, death finds them first. And there you have it.

I'm just a very bad person. And I guess I'll just continue to be one.

Who knows? Maybe 20 years from now you'll see ME in the headlines.

For urinating on the Queen of England's slippers. Not sure how. But I WILL accomplish this.

BWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

I am a very bad man!

[Ryan_DuBois]

Well, I only read the first couple posts and then skimmed the rest, but Xnull's post was a lot more insightful than it's getting credit for. Although, I probably don't agree with everything in there, it's not the kind of thing Hilter would post.

Trust me.

He's defenitely right about this: you absolutely have to draw a distinction between "humans" and "persons" if you're going to approach the topic of abortion with any kind of sense at all. A "human" is basically just a body.

It has two arms.

And two legs.

A "person", on the other hand, is what has real "sacred" value.

What good is a human body if it doesn't have a person in it? It's basically just machine isn't it?

So the big question with abortion is this: when is a person formed? It's a tough one to answer, primarily because nobody really knows how to define what a "person" is in the first place. I like to think that people should err on the side of caution and not have abortions until we figure out more about makes a person a person, but I can understand this thing from all sides.

I've also heard some very good thought experiments that advocate abortion even if the fetus is a person. Still, I say err on the side of caution.

If you're toally pro-life, you should check out these thought experiments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion

They really make you see things from a different perspective.